Curse

MithranArkanere · Mar 07, 2012, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The idea to add an extra low-recharge skill to carriers for the purpose of combating Wastrel-type skills was introduced about a month ago I believe, in this thread. It's a good idea, I think.

Yup. I'd go for that too.

Something like a skill that has a 2 second recharge and instant activation.
For effect, it could be something like "lose an hex for every 5 hexes on you" or something like that, and be called "Carrier Relief", to counter how stacking hexes indiscriminately on them is much easier than stacking regen and removing those hexes.

Xiner · Mar 07, 2012, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Capturing at all isn't a big problem at all then. Though they are quite hard to counter. Interrupting them is nearly impossible. Second could be something like Mistrust, but this wont stop them at all either. Only way would be to cripple them and kill them or keep KD'ing them. But this isn't my problem at all... I wouldn't mind this being toned down a bit though.

A RoJ monk with RoD can keep a few guys standing against those mesmers. The problem is like everyone says killing of carriers. It's way too easy and only a full dedicated healer monk can keep this alive. No other profession can cap AND kill carriers so easy.
I mean sometimes you see those N/A with Weaken Knees. Those guys can't capture a shrine. And they can't even kill a carrier as fast as WD/WW. And IMO those are a little easier to counter for an average monk.

So seeing the carriers with some skill would be nice IMO. And some improvement of the AI wouldn't hurt at all either.

jazilla · Mar 07, 2012, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Isn't the real problem the AI in JQ? Why would switches be made to WD/WW because the AI was bad? If we are using that logic then we need to buff Paragon skills for RA.

MithranArkanere · Mar 07, 2012, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Creating and adding a simple skill to the carriers is way easier and faster than improving the AI.

Kunder · Mar 08, 2012, 01:37 AM // 01:37

WD/WW is designed to absolutely slaughter anything that doesn't use skills. Vital NPCs that aren't able to use skills is a basic design problem, all the AI in the world won't let an NPC use skills it doesn't have.

Andemius · Mar 08, 2012, 01:47 AM // 01:47

The problem is it's strength compared to other profesions/capping builds. It can easily match up to RoJ, Bombers, and eles.

Say you have Psycic Instability, WWorry, Wdemise, and CoFrustration, you can now cap any quarry, kill carriers with ease, and rupt other cappers (or whatever tickles your fancy).

This is only possible because of WDemise, as WWorry was never an issue. Nerf that, and the problem goes away.

Missing HB · Mar 08, 2012, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Creating and adding a simple skill to the carriers is way easier and faster than improving the AI.

Just try to think of it :
- if you add some kind of hexbreaker, it will just make turtles survive 3 seconds longer
- if you add some kind of health regen, it will need to be like +4-6 if you do not want mesmers to kil it, but other professions won't be able to do much anymore
- if you make a skill kding someone in range, it won't do anything against rangers with longbows

Obviously, if mesmers weren't able to cap shrines so fast, they would just be carriers killers and it would be fine .. And as i stated this, the only way to fix everything in JQ is to split NPC's on shrines

Jeydra · Mar 08, 2012, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

The problem is it's strength compared to other profesions/capping builds. It can easily match up to RoJ, Bombers, and eles.

Not really. RoJ Monks can keep carriers alive + run them. You can't as a Mesmer. Two Bombers can teardown a shrine defended by a Monk (depends on build though). Two Mesmers can't. They also cap Archer shrines easier, and can reposition easily since they kill themselves. Eles can kill other players, defending shrines that way, keep turtles snared vs. healing, and apply considerable pressure on any Monks defending shrines. Dom Mesmers cannot.

I don't see why you say Dom Mesmer is "stronger".

Xiner · Mar 08, 2012, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Adding a simple skill to a carrier rebalance quite much imo. Just see the difference in capturing regular shrines vs. ranger shrines. Capturing a ranger shrine is slightly harder than capturing the regular. Assuming we are talking about the ranger shrines without any height advantage. With some good interrupting the rangers shrines are easy but imo they are still harder than the others. Just add a non-effect skill which is casted every 2-3 secs? Not sure but it might slow down the process to make it more balanced.

Andemius · Mar 08, 2012, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Not really. RoJ Monks can keep carriers alive + run them. You can't as a Mesmer. Two Bombers can teardown a shrine defended by a Monk (depends on build though). Two Mesmers can't. They also cap Archer shrines easier, and can reposition easily since they kill themselves. Eles can kill other players, defending shrines that way, keep turtles snared vs. healing, and apply considerable pressure on any Monks defending shrines. Dom Mesmers cannot.

I don't see why you say Dom Mesmer is "stronger".

I never once used the word stronger, so I don't know why you have quoted me as doing so, despite that being my implication.

WDemise is OP (when used in conjuction with the skills I said earlier especially) due to it's flexibility. Sure a decent player should be able to counter it, but NPCs cannot. RoJ monks are inferior cappers, at the very least imo, as RoJ has no flexibility at all, and requires 16 attribute points to be effective. There are no other smiting skills worth using really, so you are then splitting into prots, heals, or utility such as "Make Haste!".

Two bombers could indeed tear down a shrine defended by a monk, but they would both die, and therefore not be available for a few seconds unlike a mesmer. Two mesmers could easily cap a quarry defended by a monk, just rupt them. As I said above, you only need 4 skills to efficiently cap, so you have 4 spaces free for whatever you fancy, which could be caster hate, slap blackout on the monk while another caps, it's not difficult.

TLDR: My assertion here is that Mesmers (using at least the 4 skills I have outlined), can multi-task better than other meta builds, such as RoJ, Bomber. Not only due to the strength of the capping ability, but defense via interrupts, and general utility left you with your 4 free skill slots. Without WDemise, mesmers would stack up normally against other cappers.

Xiner · Mar 08, 2012, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

TLDR: My assertion here is that Mesmers (using at least the 4 skills I have outlined), can multi-task better than other meta builds, such as RoJ, Bomber. Not only due to the strength of the capping ability, but defense via interrupts, and general utility left you with your 4 free skill slots. Without WDemise, mesmers would stack up normally against other cappers.

This is nearly what I think. They can even fill those role more effectively sometimes than the others.

Jeydra · Mar 08, 2012, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

TLDR: My assertion here is that Mesmers (using at least the 4 skills I have outlined), can multi-task better than other meta builds, such as RoJ, Bomber. Not only due to the strength of the capping ability, but defense via interrupts, and general utility left you with your 4 free skill slots. Without WDemise, mesmers would stack up normally against other cappers.

Undoubtedly, but remember JQ isn't an organized arena. You may not be able to synergize two Wastrel's Mesmers because they may have brought the same skills, e.g. some Mesmers might bring Ethereal Burden for snare, others might bring Mistrust, some might have ESurge, etc. Without Blackout - and point blank skills are hard to use in JQ - you can't take down a Monk easily either, unless you can consistently reflex 3/4s casts (very few people can).

Can you exhibit a Mesmer build that can do multiple things outright better than other professions?

Andemius · Mar 08, 2012, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Undoubtedly, but remember JQ isn't an organized arena. You may not be able to synergize two Wastrel's Mesmers because they may have brought the same skills, e.g. some Mesmers might bring Ethereal Burden for snare, others might bring Mistrust, some might have ESurge, etc. Without Blackout - and point blank skills are hard to use in JQ - you can't take down a Monk easily either, unless you can consistently reflex 3/4s casts (very few people can).

Can you exhibit a Mesmer build that can do multiple things outright better than other professions?

Well, here's a couple examples, they're not perfect by any means, but I'll explain what I belive their good features to be.

OQRDAowjO30QoMIHo87AogGB Me/N Cap, rupt, rupt through anti-rupts, drop Bombers, shutdown. You could replace Backfire with diversion or guilt or backfire, any caster hate is fine. I'd say this can cap better than any other, and has some defensive and offensive capability without loosing the capping strength.

OQNEAowz14cTDhygcgynIgRsbA Me/Mo Cap, rupt, rupt through anti-rupts, take one ench from bombers, which makes them less dangerous (not as good as removing all, but better than none), Heal quarries, Heal carriers, regen carriers. This is more aimed at defense and carrier protection, but still has the capping capability and good defense via interrupts.

It really depends what you want to do. No matter what, you can cap effectively, imo better than any other class. Then the rest of the bar is up to you, escorting, defending, or killing.

Jeydra · Mar 09, 2012, 11:17 AM // 11:17

First build - no speedboost; unable to cap Archer shrines reliably; unable to kill other players; no snare; unable to defend shrines against any non-spell damage or any kind of damage that gets through interrupts (e.g. Cry of Frustration). All significant drawbacks. You can bring Backfire instead of Blackout or whatever, which removes "unable to kill other players" but adds "unable to cap shrines through Monks".

I don't agree that the build has much offensive capability. Defensive capability, yes, some. But it can't push up red bars the way a Mo/P can.

Second build - no speedboost; unable to cap Archer shrines reliably; unable to kill other players; unreliable defensive ability (you WILL be overpowered by strong capping builds or two cappers that attempt to cap at the same time, or if the capper gets a couple of HCTs - Heal Area does have a 5s cooldown that can be blown through); unable to cap shrines through Monks; no snare. All significant drawbacks, and I'm sure I can come up with some more if necessary.

I'll say N/A bombers tear down shrines more powerfully than Mesmers simply because they output more (reliable) DPS. Rangers can pressure a defended shrine decently because they can hit without getting hit back, meaning the Monk has to continuously heal (expending energy + can't run turtle), etc. Mo/P's escort turtles better and defend shrines better. Fire Eles typically kill other players better, as do some melee builds. Et cetera. Sure, Mesmers have their good features. But they are not overwhelmingly good.

I'm still not convinced.

drkn · Mar 09, 2012, 02:30 PM // 14:30

So Jeydra, how about other meta builds, like:
RoJ - unable to kill other players; unable to kill carriers; no snare; less powerful at capping and easier to interrupt/outheal than mesmers; unable to defend shrines against bombers and most decent mesmers; much more prone to dying when capping than mesmers who keep the NPCs on the ground/rupted; unable to cap shrines through monks; going /Me, they can bring an interrupt to rupt other RoJs and sometimes even bombers (just catch them when casting enchants, or on Putrid Bile, and it helps significantly) as well as Arcane Echo to cap faster, but they sacrifice some heals and speedboost; going /P they get the speedboost, but are essentially gimped in what /Me are better, and they're tied to running and healing carriers rather than capping, thus going full support might be a better option.

Bombers - unable to kill carriers; no speedboost; no snare; unable to kill other players; no rupts or other player annoyances; unable to defend anything against anything; prone to enchant removal and good pre-prot; while it may be an advantage at mobility, they still lose valuable seconds every time they cap anything.

Prot/heal monks - well, the only thing they can do is defend shrines and run carriers, so it's self-explanatory what they can't do.

Mesmers are not 'overwhelmingly good'. Still, they are much more versatile and powerful than any other build currently available and widely used at JQ.

Jeydra · Mar 09, 2012, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

So Jeydra, how about other meta builds, like:
RoJ - unable to kill other players; unable to kill carriers; no snare; less powerful at capping and easier to interrupt/outheal than mesmers; unable to defend shrines against bombers and most decent mesmers; much more prone to dying when capping than mesmers who keep the NPCs on the ground/rupted; unable to cap shrines through monks; going /Me, they can bring an interrupt to rupt other RoJs and sometimes even bombers (just catch them when casting enchants, or on Putrid Bile, and it helps significantly) as well as Arcane Echo to cap faster, but they sacrifice some heals and speedboost; going /P they get the speedboost, but are essentially gimped in what /Me are better, and they're tied to running and healing carriers rather than capping, thus going full support might be a better option.

Bombers - unable to kill carriers; no speedboost; no snare; unable to kill other players; no rupts or other player annoyances; unable to defend anything against anything; prone to enchant removal and good pre-prot; while it may be an advantage at mobility, they still lose valuable seconds every time they cap anything.

Prot/heal monks - well, the only thing they can do is defend shrines and run carriers, so it's self-explanatory what they can't do.

Bingo! Hence JQ is balanced! All the builds do some things better than other builds and do some things worse.

I will agree Mesmers are more versatile. I do not agree they are stronger. It's for you to convince me of that.

PS: Bombers will typically have speedboost, and they kill players more effectively than Mesmers (they at least force the other player to move).
PPS: Against solo bombers and Mesmers a RoJ can keep the shrine alive.

Andemius · Mar 09, 2012, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

First build - no speedboost; unable to cap Archer shrines reliably; unable to kill other players; no snare; unable to defend shrines against any non-spell damage or any kind of damage that gets through interrupts (e.g. Cry of Frustration). All significant drawbacks. You can bring Backfire instead of Blackout or whatever, which removes "unable to kill other players" but adds "unable to cap shrines through Monks".

I don't agree that the build has much offensive capability. Defensive capability, yes, some. But it can't push up red bars the way a Mo/P can.

Second build - no speedboost; unable to cap Archer shrines reliably; unable to kill other players; unreliable defensive ability (you WILL be overpowered by strong capping builds or two cappers that attempt to cap at the same time, or if the capper gets a couple of HCTs - Heal Area does have a 5s cooldown that can be blown through); unable to cap shrines through Monks; no snare. All significant drawbacks, and I'm sure I can come up with some more if necessary.

I'll say N/A bombers tear down shrines more powerfully than Mesmers simply because they output more (reliable) DPS. Rangers can pressure a defended shrine decently because they can hit without getting hit back, meaning the Monk has to continuously heal (expending energy + can't run turtle), etc. Mo/P's escort turtles better and defend shrines better. Fire Eles typically kill other players better, as do some melee builds. Et cetera. Sure, Mesmers have their good features. But they are not overwhelmingly good.

I'm still not convinced.

I did say they were by no means perfect, it is a result of what i could throw together in a couple of seconds.

You seem to want a build which can do EVERYTHING at once, and have yet to provide one, despite critiquing the examples I have posted. If you want a speed boost, you sacrifce something else.

If you can't kill another player with WD/WW and a couple rupts, you probably ought not to be playing mesmer. Especially a build such as bomber which has no flexibility at all, and only one skill which can counter (Dash).

As to RoJ monks, interrupt them, it's not hard. And if you use Power Lock (which isn't even an elite) you can interrupt through Mo/E or Mo/Me anti-interrupts. RoJ is a weaker cap than WD, PI, WW, CoF, as it can be countered by a small heal, you need something significantly stronger to stop the mesmer chain.

How about you give some example builds which cap and X better than a WD mesmer.

tealspikes · Mar 09, 2012, 09:27 PM // 21:27

The only place where WW/WD is an issue is JQ, so give the carriers some instacast abilities to actually use, or 1 spammable ability.

Jeydra · Mar 09, 2012, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andemius

I did say they were by no means perfect, it is a result of what i could throw together in a couple of seconds.

You seem to want a build which can do EVERYTHING at once, and have yet to provide one, despite critiquing the examples I have posted. If you want a speed boost, you sacrifce something else.

If you can't kill another player with WD/WW and a couple rupts, you probably ought not to be playing mesmer. Especially a build such as bomber which has no flexibility at all, and only one skill which can counter (Dash).

As to RoJ monks, interrupt them, it's not hard. And if you use Power Lock (which isn't even an elite) you can interrupt through Mo/E or Mo/Me anti-interrupts. RoJ is a weaker cap than WD, PI, WW, CoF, as it can be countered by a small heal, you need something significantly stronger to stop the mesmer chain.

How about you give some example builds which cap and X better than a WD mesmer.

There is no build that can do everything at once and do it better than every other build - hence JQ is balanced.

You cannot kill another player with WD / WW and a couple of rupts. You're making it sound like you can interrupt Dash, other WD/WWs, Aura of Resto, Barrage under Lightning Reflexes, WoH, etc on demand. Not possible. Sorry. You CAN interrupt a bomber, so you can defend a shrine solo against a bomber to some extent as well (they can die and pop Death Nova whether you like it or not, and a 50% health bomber is just as dangerous as a 100% health bomber). But you can't kill every template on demand. In fact I doubt you can kill a Fire Ele with just WD/WW + a couple of rupts.

RoJ obviously caps weaker than bombers and Mesmers. In return they defend shrines + carriers better and can run turtles. That is trivially a significant addition to a team, is it not?

Builds that cap + does X better than Mesmers: bombers, with X being "take down defended shrines". Fir Eles cap + kill other players better than Mesmers. RoJ Monks cap + defend shrines / carriers better than Mesmers. And so on. They may not cap as well as Mesmers, but it's a trade-off, isn't it?

Andemius · Mar 10, 2012, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

There is no build that can do everything at once and do it better than every other build

That by no means is the definition of balance.

Quote:

You cannot kill another player with WD / WW and a couple of rupts. You're making it sound like you can interrupt Dash, other WD/WWs, Aura of Resto, Barrage under Lightning Reflexes, WoH, etc on demand. Not possible. Sorry.

Obviously, you have not been to JQ recently, or you would realise how ridicoulouly easy it is to kill a player, especially an ele, or other offensive caster with WD/WW and rupting. In fact I do it often. If you can rupt, then you're doing 275 armor ignoring damage every 5 seconds with the combinaiton of WD/WW.

In no way do I suggest you can interrupt dash or LR, as they are stances the thought of interrupting them is ludicrous. Sure, you may not hit every 1 sec skill, but for the most part, if you're spamming WD/WW, you ought only need interrupt 2 skills to kill someone.

Quote:

RoJ obviously caps weaker than bombers and Mesmers. In return they defend shrines + carriers better and can run turtles. That is trivially a significant addition to a team, is it not?

Quite correct, it is nice to have some split heals from a monk who can also cap, however, as I have indicated, you could drop 11 points in healing and take 4 skills to prop up carriers or quarries and still have the ability to cap, rupt and kill as a Me/Mo. And as to boosting carriers, that limits your second profession to Ele, Para or (at a push) War.

Quote:

Builds that cap + does X better than Mesmers: bombers, with X being "take down defended shrines". Fir Eles cap + kill other players better than Mesmers. RoJ Monks cap + defend shrines / carriers better than Mesmers. And so on. They may not cap as well as Mesmers, but it's a trade-off, isn't it?

I disagree completely with this apart from the point on bombers being the most powerful cap, as elementalists and monks are so easily interruptable. However, a prot monk can easily hold a quarry vs a bomber. Additionally a bomber uses 7 (8 if you bring dash) skills to cap with, and it kills the player, taking them out of the game for ~30s depending on how they do with RCs.

If a mesmer takes WD and WW with 16 in Dom, then you need only 2 cycles of WD and WW to kill a carrier. This takes ~11 seconds, and it's a cheap energy cost and recharge. You could do it with WW or WD alone, but it would obvioulsy take longer.

WD (not WW, which does not need changing unless WD remains the same), is in need of balancing due to it's spamability, high armor ignoring damage output, and the fact that it outshines Weaken Knees [E], in the only real area which ought to be a strong point for that skill. Without WD, a mesmer will not be able to cap as reliably or quickly, will take longer to kill carriers, and be able to pressure skill useage less.

Side note: when capping with a mesmer, I never take more than 1 hit from a foe on a quarry, and when I do it's from the ranger using sundering attack. A monk or ele would take more dmg unless using MS or some other crowd control, which they rarely do.